The Dark Side of the Moon
Postpartum Depression, Birth-Related Trauma, and the Shadow-Self of Motherhood
In this episode, I am joined by Sharon Gjieli, a wife, a mother, and an advocate for judgment-free parenting. Sharon shares her raw, uncut story of experiencing postpartum depression during a global pandemic and the aftermath of birth-related trauma. Though she has a happy ending with two beautiful children, the battle to get there was brutal. Listen now to hear her story, and learn how she got through one of the most challenging experiences of her life.
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He cried and he cried and he cried and he cried and he cried
and I was tired.
I was so tired and he cried and he cried and he cried and
the world shut down and I couldn't see anyone and I couldn't
get a Hunt like my parents couldn't.
Nobody could come.
I was so isolated.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to the show.
For this episode, I am joined by a dear friend, Sharon Gjieli,
who is a mother living in New York City on the Upper West
Side with her husband.
She's a mother of two and has experienced just a tremendous
amount of challenge, really, in motherhood, especially the
time that her and I were closer when I was living in New
York. Back in 20, 16, 20, 17, she experienced birth related
trauma and a pregnancy loss since then.
She now has two beautiful, healthy children.
But, you know, the road wasn't all Sunshine and roses, although
now family is up and running and very happy.
I wanted to give her my platform today to really share her
story and share her journey, really getting through a real
battle of birth related trauma and pregnancy loss and postpartum
depression. I think it's it's just a crucial side to acknowledge
of motherhood.
I find all too often we see just the positive, light filled
sides of motherhood, the laughter, the cute photos, the cooking,
the play time, and that's all incredible.
But it's one side of the story and it's not.
It's not always so easy and always so happy.
And I think the more we talk about it, the more we cast,
you know, the shadows into the light, the more integrated
we become.
And the less shame we feel about very human experiences,
and the stronger we become and the more we're able to really
support each other.
So I hope you liked this episode.
Sharon is incredible.
She is just so intelligent and deeply self aware and is just
such an asset, I think, to the community of women and mothers,
especially just for her bravery and vulnerability in sharing
this story.
This really raw, really real story that has a happy ending.
But, you know, it doesn't negate this.
It's just experience.
And anyway, without further Ado, here is Sharon, Julie and
her story.
So just to give a little background, my first pregnancy,
I had lost a child.
I named her Honor.
I thought it was important to do that, and I refer to her
that way and honors due date was around my birthday 2,017
and then my daughter, who's with us, Eleanor.
We call her Lenny for short.
She actually had the same due date.
So that whole the two kids almost felt like one story.
And then when my son, Eli, was born, he was a surprise pregnancy.
I was still nursing.
I really didn't think he can be a pregnant while nursing.
So anyone out there just is protection if you don't want
another kid.
But I got pregnant again.
I was in a position where I was happy.
I think I was surprised, but I wasn't, like, upset about
it. I very much wanted to have a family.
I got pregnant, and I noticed that things were kind of off.
And I noticed that through my pregnancy I had what's called
pre Natal anxiety and depression.
And I think that people talk about the postpartum ugliness
a lot more than the pre needles because women are supposed
to be glowing and beautiful and happy.
And, you know, it's so celebrated to be pregnant.
And I attributed that to having lost a baby.
I didn't really bond with my daughter that much pregnancy
either, but it was really shortly after she was born and
not even like that day.
But maybe a few weeks later, I created a really intense bond
with her, and she was like my home.
She's my bestie.
And with my son, I wasn't really attaching to him in the
pregnancy, which I felt like was what I would expect given
the loss I'd experience in that trauma.
But I didn't know that the other parts of my life would be
so impacted.
My relationship with my husband was pretty Rocky.
I was snapping at people.
My parents were saying that I was, like, difficult to deal
with a lot, and I constantly felt like I was on the edge.
So I went into the Labor spontaneously two weeks early, but
that's still considered to term.
And I had a very difficult for my epidurals didn't work.
I was paralyzed.
It was hours and hours and hours of really big pain.
And I was feeling claustrophobic and it was dark because
whatever. That's the own story.
But 13 hours later, I finally gave birth.
And I remember telling people have felt like sunglasses routine
INO and suddenly everything was bright and I felt happy.
But afterwards, almost like a roller coaster.
I went up, up, up, up, up and then down and fast.
And I remember before my son was born in January, January
10 th in Cove in New York.
We say March 16 th is the day things changed.
He was two months old and that happened for the first two
months. I tried to bond of him.
I did the things you're supposed to do.
I exclusively breastfed both of my children.
I was very lucky to be able to make enough milk and stay
home, and I was given a great opportunity to do that exclusively
breastfed. I took bath with him.
I made eye contact with him.
I did skin to skin.
I did everything I could while also making sure my daughter
with who I've already bonded, wasn't feeling neglected.
I would tell her, This is our baby and we nursed him together.
I would have her put her hand right here.
I told her that's how the milk comes out.
And I feel like I bonded with her through him, this project
we had together.
But I still couldn't make it happen with him.
And I remember telling my husband, and it feels like I'm
waiting for his mom to come home and take him.
I just wanted her to come and get him because I just couldn't.
I couldn't deal with it anymore.
He was he was a very difficult baby, knowing him now and
fast forward.
He's my baby.
I love him so much, but it took a lot of work.
But back then, he cried and he cried and he cried and he
cried and he cried.
And I was tired.
I was so tired.
And he cried and he cried an he cried and the world shut
down. And I couldn't see anyone.
And I couldn't get a Hun.
Like my parents couldn't.
Nobody could come.
I was so isolated, which without post partum depression,
any extrovert, any human loses their mind.
But my husband was an essential worker.
So he was out of the house and he was busier than ever.
I had two kids.
My apartment has very little sunlight, and I couldn't dog
with this baby.
And I started to get angry with him.
And there's a lot of guilt now, as I'm telling you this,
I obviously feel like a shit mom, you know, didn't want to
not found with my kid.
It just wasn't happening.
And I would take baths and I would look at him and.
And it just felt like I was acting like none of it felt real
for me.
And it just kept getting darker and darker.
And Yeah, it gets really deep.
And a lot of the thoughts that I had at the time, now that
I think that I've finally gotten out of it, they almost like
they didn't belong to me, someone who I think I'm a very
affectionate person.
I think I'm a very loving person right now with my kids,
all hands on deck, obsessed with them.
But at the time, I just wanted him to go on.
I remember telling my baby boy he was like 3, 4 months old.
Like, why can't you just shut the fuck up?
Just stop crying.
I yelled at this baby.
I just couldn't take it anymore.
And it was bad.
It was really bad.
And I felt very guilty.
And I felt very sorry for him that he was stuck with her
mom. Like me.
I felt very bad for it.
I just want to pause for a second.
First of all, I just want to thank you again.
This is so raw and so vulnerable.
And I can only imagine how difficult it must be just to even
share this.
But you're not alone.
I'm not a mom.
Unfortunately, I wish I was, but I think that a lot of women
listening are going to relate or if they're not going to
relate now, they will in the future.
So I just want to pause here and say that thank you and also
kind of go back a little bit.
You mentioned a little bit in the beginning of your story,
how you were snapping at people a little bit, and how it
was kind of a typical behavior that maybe spanned beyond
just a hormonal reaction.
Right.
I feel like all throughout this whole story, for me, the
way that I'm seeing it, maybe I'm wrong, but how I'm interpreting
it, it's very much like a trauma response.
It's a lot deeper even than just postpartum these feelings
of anxiety and not attaching and not bonding.
Like, could all really stem from trauma.
So I want to just ask if, you know, maybe if someone listening,
how to differentiate, like, do you know your experience with
your son?
Is it just postpartum, or is this attachment thing kind of
beyond that?
A little bit?
Honestly, I can only speak from my experience.
I have bachelors and a half in psychology.
I'm not really an expert here, but from where I stand, I
think it's a little bit of both in my case.
But I know having spoken to other women who post partum depression,
who don't know where it came from, I had a lot of advantages.
I was able to see.
Okay, I'm snapping.
Okay.
This isn't normal one because I had a child before, so I
could compare the bond.
And Teva says, I'm like Super selfaware.
And I've done therapy for years and years and years, and
I'm able to catch myself.
But I'm sure other women, whether they've had inherited trauma
or personal trauma or even if it's just the hormones, pregnancy
itself is a trauma.
Your whole body gets taken over, and then you push and the
closest you'll ever be a dying every time you give birth,
it's. Ithink about before technology and medicine and all
these things.
How many women die during childbirth?
Oh, Yeah.
Wow.
It's like it's a really intense I don't know how to explain
to you how out of body it is to just just have contractions
and to be pulled, to breathe and push through them.
And it's like you tap into this warrior side of yourself,
and then you leave it feeling like you just exited a battle.
When that's my take on it.
Right.
And I've been given for three times.
I mentioned a loss.
My first one, I never had any epidurals.
It was a very aggressive induction, and I was in a lot of
pain. My daughter.
I almost named the doctor after the guy.
Yeah, I'm almost saying my daughter after the doctor who
gave me the epidural.
He was doctor, I hear.
So I love him.
I did my makeup during birth with her, and even still, I
left it.
We were a diaper.
We all wore a diaper.
Anyone.
We all wore the diaper, right?
We all had the FAA.
We all did the stuff, and it even the most beautiful birth
can be traumatic.
And then with my son, I drill didn't work.
I'm generally if I can't get a shirt off I start getting
into panic mode, and I rip it, and I'm like, I couldn't move
for 13 hours, and I felt like just that alone.
But the problems were sending from before.
That.
Right.
Like I was saying, even in my pregnancy, I was feeling something.
I'm sure that the delivery didn't make it easier, but something
was off.
Something was off.
And I'm saying it could have been, you know, the first delivery.
But for all intents and purposes, people who've never had
anything like that still get postpartum depression.
I think, just a body having reached its limit just from pregnancy
itself, which I think is its own trauma.
With your second to do have an epidural.
I had an EPI drill with my daughter and with my son, but
my son did not work.
Yeah.
The doctor hit the wrong nerve.
So he hit my motor nerve instead of my sensory nerve, and
I felt everything but couldn't really move.
Wow.
So it was hard.
And I remember my tooth.
I shipped my tooth because my poor husband, who was really
there for me, they kept telling him, Go to sleep.
She's gonna be here a while.
And I was like, go to the sleep.
I'm gonna need you when it's time to push.
I was grid in my teeth, and I chipped my tooth to not wake
him up.
And then I woke him up to tell him my chip my tooth.
So the whole thing was it was silly, but, Yeah, it was really,
really hard.
And then I'm he know me and my astrology.
So I was looking at the Nate place in my hand so they could
some move.
I couldn't move my back, couldn't move my legs.
I couldn't move my feet, but I can move my hands.
So I was looking up at the NATO placement for the next 24
hours, and I found out that after 746, it would be a 12 house
son. And I was like, No, no, no.
So I told everyone, they told me it's time to push.
I had till 7 46.
I was like, so I got him out in eight minutes, and that was
crazy. But I was just for his future.
I was like, Oh, my God.
I love it.
I was motivated by the stars.
My son will not have a 12 has no.
He has the first house on in Cap record, and that boy will
make things happen.
Wow.
Amazing.
What a guest.
Seriously, because I get 10%.
I'm going to tell him when he's successful.
You're Welcome.
I did that after that experience.
Right.
Okay.
So do you think the the pain maybe that you endured, or do
you think it's all kind of symbolic?
Are there symbolic kind of threads?
I'm wondering.
And this is someone I have no contact with, childbirth or
motherhood. So this is coming from someone who just doesn't
know. But, like, would you say, is there a correlation between
the degree of pain that you felt the second time.
Or also maybe like, it just sounds like the second pregnancy.
Overall, there's just a symbolic heaviness or darkness or
toughness, like pain, just pain there.
I don't know.
I'll be honest.
A lot of it felt bigger than me.
You know, this was, if anything, it was my easiest to get
pregnant. My daughter, I was trying to ring in and lost one
and trying and trying and trying and presenting my husband.
And like, when we had to try, I was almost like cause I could
stand in anymore because the hardest thing on a marriage
is trying to get pregnant and not getting pregnant.
Wow.
You end up resenting each other, you lose the birth.
I think the statistic I wrote was 87% of stillbirths end
in divorce.
Oh my God, because I just rocks you as a couple.
You see all this anger and nowhere to place it.
And a lot of times I think we were Anglia each other at ourselves.
Right?
And I think a lot of what I'd gone through as a lot of self
Patriot. I think that when it got really dark in my post
part went to suicidal without anyone freaking out.
But when it did get dark and suicidal for me, it was like
the world would be happier if I wasn't in it.
My kids would be less traumatized by my loss than by being
parented by me, and I will be doing it felt like a gesture
of love.
Like, I love my family.
I can't keep them stuck with me because I'm just so fucked
up and I'm not getting better.
And that's kind of where it was coming.
So it wasn't like, you know, fuck everyone.
I give up.
I don't want to do this anymore.
I don't care how it affects you.
For me, it was like, I can't keep putting you through a life
with me.
It's not fair to my family that I'm constantly angry and
snapping and I felt too damaged to conduct a family.
And I felt like my family would just inherit my trauma, and
I needed to end that.
I needed to end that cycle.
I'm really lucky that I got through it without having made
that huge mistake because my spirit would regret it forever.
You know, I'm in a much healthier place and I'm doing a lot
of active work on myself.
And to say that I haven't ever, like, snapped again would
be a lie.
So I'm a work in progress and I think I'm getting better
at it.
And I think that for me, a big thing that helped was cause
when you're depressed and you have postpartum depression
or any sort of depression.
I remember waking up in the morning assuming I got to sleep
that night and just the Act of waking up felt like a marathon.
I was exhausted.
I was exhausted, but I couldn't not wake up because the kids
were up.
So I had to wake.
I had to make breakfast.
I'd sit there and forced myself to feed these kids, and nobody
could help me again.
We're in a pandemic, right?
My husband's working.
He's busy.
He felt that he abandoned me.
He didn't have a choice.
He had to pay for the food I was cooking, and I'm pushing
the breakfast.
I'm feeding them breakfast.
He doesn't want nursing.
He doesn't want eat is going to latch is biting me fully.
Me yanking me, rip my shirt.
I'm trying to feed the girl.
And I felt so sorry for myself.
Sometimes it was like there's people baking zucchini bread,
getting to know, you know, like, going to Beach houses.
And I'm here putting, like, a prisoner in my own house.
And I just want this kid to go away.
He won't shut up.
And he didn't.
He did not.
And the poor baby looking back, I think he was just really
clusterphobic in his own body.
And I wonder if he inherited that from my Labor, because
I thought so, too interesting.
Okay.
But when he started moving, crawling, he became a different
baby. Even his face is different.
He's a happy boy now, but he just wanted to be autonomous
so badly.
And.
And he could probably sense that, you know, you could sense
that I wasn't feeling it for him.
And the poor baby, like, wasn't getting the motherly love
be dessert.
I kept him alive, and that's literally where it ended.
I changed his diaper probably less often than I should have.
I bathed him when it was time I fed him because he was hungry
and my boobs hurt.
So I did it.
But it felt very much like I feed him.
I put him down, I deal with my daughter, we play with him
together. But it was an activity for me and not for my son
and me, right?
It felt like I felt like I was putting all those energy towards
her not being traumatized and just keeping him alive.
And that's, like, as much as I could do.
And it exhausted me doing it, just keeping the kid alive.
And then when I found myself like, Oh, my God.
You're actually kind of cute.
Oh, my God.
Is baby long?
Wow.
It slowly.
It happens slowly and quickly at the same time.
And then around the summer, I was like, is this baby is delicious?
I missed out.
This kid is cute.
But that was after therapy.
After doing all the skin to skin, all the bats, all the icon
type forcing for cause.
Bond is a verb, right?
Bond is a verb.
And I think that's something I really have to take with me.
You don't have a bond.
You bond.
You create it.
You make it.
You do it.
You do the bonding.
I actively bonded with my son, and it was hard.
It was hard.
I'm not going to let anyone say, Oh, you put just there's.
No, just about it.
It's like work.
I made it happen.
I bonded with him.
It clicks now.
It's indestructible.
Now.
They say, the mother love I got there, but it wasn't gonna
happen on it.
It doesn't just click.
It doesn't just happen.
It's something you make happen.
And it felt like it was my responsibility.
He didn't ask to be born.
He didn't ask to be conceived.
He didn't ask for any that I brought him to the world.
I had to make it better.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
It feels like the battle wasn't over.
After you delivered, like the battle continued, and you still
had to fight and fight and fight.
And against everything your mind was telling you, and your
body was telling you, and the world was going through.
You fought and fought and fought and just never gave up.
And now you have the bond that you wanted initially for anyone
listening, who might be going through it, who might be having
the same thoughts and feelings that you did.
I'm curious about the direct action that you took once you
started having those thoughts or notice that your mind was
going sounding like that.
And about how long it took for you to win the fight.
Really?
So I have to say that I said I have very many advantages.
So a lot of women that are listening, it might not be this
quick for you.
And I'm sorry.
Anytime you want to reach out to me, by the way, I'm sure
more. Go put my information somewhere.
Please do.
You're not alone.
But I had a very supportive husband.
I it took me a while to explain to him what was going on.
I love him so much, but he's a rock and not an empath, right?
He's not someone who understands big feelings very well.
So I had to kind of really break it down for him.
And I'm like, it's not that I don't want to be better.
It's just not happening.
It's like I'm trying to speak a language I don't speak, and
I'm trying to learn it.
I have to learn it.
So my husband was really, really good about that.
He'd come home and he'd quickly takes the baby, and I talk
to him and play with him and give him all it affection that
I felt like I couldn't give him.
And that took a lot of guilt away from me.
I mean, now that we're opening up from a pandemic, the biggest
thing I could say is ask for help.
I didn't really have that resource because the world shut
down. I did a lot of physical exercise.
I know that's crazy, but it worked.
Something about the endorphins.
I took a walk every single day.
I made sure I got sunlight.
I didn't wear sunglasses because I read somewhere, but the
Sun is supposed to directly hit your eye.
So I took a walk every single day.
But one kid, the boy.
I warned her skin to skin.
I thought that was like a double whammy.
And then my daughter was in a stroller, and I walked and
walked and walked and walked and made sure his skin was on
my skin.
And I got sunlight.
I got exercise.
I did.
I was telling you earlier, I did Zumba with my daughter to
Disney music, because otherwise he wouldn't let me do anything.
So we were doing, like, like, we're doing your welcome from
Moana Zumba or like a and I was just getting my heart pumping.
I was getting myself active, and I think there's a part of
it, too.
There's some subconscious resentment.
I was 200 pounds after my son was born.
Like, I felt physically like he'd taken from me as well.
I became I didn't feel attractive anymore.
Like a five foot 3 girl.
I was relatively send my whole life.
And all of a sudden I just felt like I wasn't even wearing
my own body.
And I think, like, reclaiming my body that way.
I think getting the sunlight, getting the exercise, expressing
to my husband shamelessly.
I need you to stay home because I'm afraid to be alone right
now. I'm afraid to be by myself right now.
I don't know what I'm capable of, and my thoughts are scaring
me. So I need you to be home with me right now.
And he did.
He was so good.
Bless his heart, you know?
And I'm not saying that we didn't have hiccups or issues
or fights or whatever.
I'm sure there's part of him that resented me for being so
sad all the time.
And he felt like his feelings are muted, and I'm sure they
were. But he was a very huge support for me.
And a lot of women going through this don't have that.
They have very unsupportive partners or families.
They just get over it.
Or what are you talking about?
I remember people telling me what he's talking about.
He's such a happy baby.
Do you think I photograph him while he's crying?
You know, like, you're seeing what I'm showing you, but you're
not here.
He's not a happy baby.
The kid won't shut up.
I don't sleep.
I sleep deprivation.
I think that when he finally started sleeping better.
And I'm not like a cried out mom.
I waited for him, and I assisted a little bit with the sleeping,
but I didn't do traditional sleep training, so it took a
little longer.
But once he started sleeping a little bit more and I got
to sleep a little bit more, I felt like a different person.
I think we react from a very different part of our brain.
We were exhausted.
Totally.
Yeah.
And I think, like, through trauma responses, I've had some
awful relationship form, my husband, where I've learned how
to yell and learned how to get anger.
I think that when you're tired, you get back to your subconscious
layer. And I was just reacting on subconscious.
And I wasn't able to put logic or conscious thought or, like,
effort into it the same way because I was just too depleted.
So those things.
And I would say also, like, it might not be coincidence that
I felt better by the summer.
The winter was gloomy.
It was a gloomy, cold winter.
When to on the East Coast.
I literally moved to Mexico.
Once the Sun went.
I was back in New York for a little bit to the whole pandemic.
And the minute November hit, I was like, I need to get out
of here from my own, like Houston.
I had to talking about it.
And I'm like, What if this winter just doesn't really work
for us?
You're not.
I feel like that's a very logical, you know, you don't have
to. It's like if you can get out or find some alternative
or travel enough or something, it's just.
It's brutal.
And with lockdown and with postpartum and a new baby, it's
like, Sharon, what a perfect storm.
Oh, my gosh.
I know I wasn't meant to be.
It was meant to be a shit storm.
But I will.
I will make zucchini bread.
One of these days.
I feel like I missed out on this.
Everyone else got to do.
I want to do a tick Tock.
I want to do all the things that everyone I want to have
the troop pandemic experience that all these other people
got. That not the bullshit that I had to deal with so far.
It's like some people celebrate holidays a little bit later.
You could celebrate your.
Yeah, fantastic.
In 2,022.
Just like having to myself when I do yoga.
Right?
So funny.
Wow.
I mean, mental health.
It's such a loaded thing.
I don't have a child and I had a horrible experience.
No, I'm just listening to your story.
I'm like, Holy crap.
It could get so much darker, even and so much realer.
And just with other lives on the line, your children.
I just.
I hope you recognize now that your strength and you know
just how bad ass you are.
Frankly, it was one of those things where I didn't really
have a choice.
I don't think I would get through it.
I just.
I was there.
What are you going to do?
I think that oftentimes people don't realize how difficulty
can be very subjective.
So what's difficult for me?
The hardest thing I've ever been through might be different
from the hardest thing someone else has been through.
But it's still the hardest, right?
It's still very subjective.
And people, like, really had a hard time during pandemic.
And I'm talking about my experience.
And there's women who are stuck home with abusive men.
I don't know if I could do that.
I don't know what I would be if it wasn't for my husband
being how he was.
I don't know.
And then also, I got very lucky.
My parents.
I was not lucky about this.
My parents got COVID in March.
My dad a position, so I couldn't see them a lot back in March.
You got COVID if you touched a cardboard box three days later,
we didn't know anything about it.
Yeah.
So we were terrified and around.
Like, I think it was in June, the first time we went to their
house, and they had a backyard.
And I don't have.
I live in Manhattan, not only in, out in the backyard.
If I show you my view right now, it's a brick wall.
It's a window brick wall.
So my parents were like, a huge support system for me, too.
I went over there every weekend.
I kept my kids outside.
We soak in as much Sun as we could.
And my mom, I spent hours and hours and our cooking because,
you know how Jewish moms are because she major.
My kids ate food that they were going to love because there's
nothing like Grandma cooking, and she did all that.
So again, I had a lot of support systems later on, and it
didn't get better until I got to tap into them.
Like, when it was Super isolation, there really was nothing.
There was nothing I could have done.
It's so funny.
Like, I'm definitely more of an introvert.
So when the pandemic started to kind of go down, I was a
little excited.
I was like, great.
It's a retreat, blah, blah.
We don't think fast forward.
Like, four months later.
And I was just, like, Super crazy and depressed and not okay.
I feel like we often overlook how powerful it is or how important
it is to have that support or have just other human contact
when you're stuck stirring alone.
I know you too.
You have a very active mind, very intelligent.
It's like my mind will eat itself, and it's left alone for
extended periods of time, you know?
And I'm an extrovert.
Like, what I did to manage Brigs test, I scored 100% on Extroversion
100%. They got an introverted bone in my body.
My mom said I will make a brick wall talk.
Wanted to.
And remember when this lockdown happened.
At first, I'm like, Oh, my God.
And On will be home.
He'll work from home and he come from like, I'm essential,
right? That doesn't apply to me.
I was like, what?
I have to be home alone with two kids for two weeks.
2 weeks.
Oh, my gosh.
I got the calls when he said that, how am I going to do?
I don't know what to.
I didn't know because my daughter and I especially because
I was just starting to get past, like, the postpartum.
The first six weeks, you give birth or pulling a diaper.
I don't care who you are.
You're wearing a diaper.
You're wearing it.
You're not going anywhere.
Eight weeks.
9.
Okay.
I'm starting to feel like back to myself.
Like, my uterus feels like it's not like cramping her all
the time.
I'm feeling okay.
So I was like, I can start calling out.
I remember I started taking my kids to, like, the kids club
to bounce around when I just had my daughter.
She wanted a bar with me.
Don't judge me.
I had other mom friends there, too.
And their kids were there, too.
And we, like, had her mom.
It was a mom bar.
And they shut the back room.
Actually, my friend Rebecca Rosler, she's an amazing person.
She started this mom group and, like, but the point was,
we would sit and we eat like our kids would eat French fries.
Then we'd have a drink.
And I was just like, even mother hot felt social to me to
just be like, no social life.
It was insane.
It was hard.
Yeah, but I'm coming back into being social again.
And, you know, like, people were doing Zoom happy hour and
Zoom movie watching.
I had such FOMO cause I can't Zoom happy hour.
My husband's at work.
Yeah, I have two kids.
Like, people would.
And then you have all those memes now you know who your real
friends really are now that no one's doing anything.
And I was like, everyone probably thinks I'm like the shittiest
friend in the world because I don't have the time to reach
out. Time did not slow down for me.
I didn't slow down.
I didn't have that time.
There was a lot of that bill, too.
Everyone feels like they're getting closer because of it.
And I just felt like I was drifting away from everyone, but
from having spoken to other modes of cost farm depression.
I think pandemic or not, there's a lot of isolation that
happens interesting in your own.
Like, you facilitate that in your own life.
And in your own mind.
I feel like depression is just like that.
Whenever I'm having, like, episodes, I'll just not answer
any text messages.
I won't see anyone won't leave my apartment, you know?
But it's like adding it child onto that and a pandemic, just
like a toddler.
And to children.
My gosh.
Wow.
So were there any mom groups?
I'm kind of.
I really want to know for anyone who finds himself having
those exact thoughts, is there anything you can recommend
for I do this.
Is it like you asked your husband to stay home?
Is it you called your therapist has direct thing?
My husband staying home wasn't really option that often.
And it was very much like an ace of fades.
If I said it, I was using my final card.
I need you.
It wasn't like he could stay home because I said so.
I really made sure to be careful about asking for that too
much. But so that person told about Rebecca Rossler.
She started the mom group that I had before she's online.
It's conceivable.
I'm sorry to plug her in, but she's the best, and I love
her. No, of course it's conceivable.
Rebecca Walter, check her out.
I reached out to her and she's like, How are you doing?
And I was like, still fucking depressed.
And she was like, still.
So she posted in one of her groups, like, I need a therapist
for this girl.
This is getting way out of hand.
My insurance.
You know how insurance is?
My insurance didn't cover many psychologists, and I didn't
really have 200 Bucks a week to throw on a ship.
I just didn't have it, especially because we lost one of
our incomes as COVID.
So I was I was kind of like, looking, looking, looking.
Rebecca helps me out.
Actually, another family friend.
She found me someone who works with insurance, and I'm not
paying anything out of pocket.
Okay.
And she's fantastic.
I really like my therapist, but I would say a lot of the
work. I mean, you don't really resolve depression in 45 minutes
a week, like, a lot of the work.
She does a lot of DBT rather than CBT, which is a lot of
like being aware and like being in the moment and grounding
yourself. And sometimes if I get really into it, this is
a really, really good trick, by the way, for anyone.
If you're in it and you can't get out of it, I'll do the
five senses and you can switch up the order.
It doesn't matter.
But I'll do five things in the room.
I can see four things in the room.
I can hear three things in the room.
I can touch two things in the room.
I can smell one thing in the room.
I can, I guess I don't know myself.
I don't know.
You figure it out yourself.
You find your own five, and you'll go from there and it could
be the next five things you can hear.
It doesn't matter.
The point is to get you centered in the moment, and it makes
a lot of that.
It brings you back to where you are a lot of those crazy,
like thoughts and stuff.
It silences them for a while, so you can make a rational
decision or whatever it is.
It actually do help you into your body, into the ear.
Now, I think with depression and anxiety, I can throw you
into the future or into the past or just in his emotional
state. It's not real either.
I find that for me, depression is about my past, and anxiety
is about this future.
Yeah, I'm anxious about the future I'm depressed about, and
they marry each other and makes it really crazy.
But.
But I think being present is where mental health, really,
and people can so toxically be like, just to say, pass and
and just be present.
Just worry about right now.
And it feels like really annoying advice because you want
to be like, Do you have any idea what it feels like?
You cannot be able to wait?
Do you know what it feels like to meet yourself so deeply?
And that's kind of where I got resentful.
But if you take, like, the, like, the toxic positivity out
of it, get finding a way.
It is difficult.
So finding away to ground yourself in the present really
does help.
Yeah, well, it sounds I completely agree, but I feel like
what's preached a lot in mental health circles on Instagram
is only that and not the shadow work, not the darkness, not.
But being honest with yourself about what your head sounds
like right now, not the where that might come from, the unearthing,
the root of all this stuff and looking at it honestly, I
think it's so important to be present, of course, and in
your body and in your right mind.
But if you do that, only it's like you're ignoring all the
other stuff and the other stuff isn't going to go away.
It's going to get more and more.
I think the more you look at it and confront it, and I'm
just honest and getting it out, taking the darkness and putting
it into the light.
That's when we find here.
The metaphor I like to use for it when I try to explain it
to people is like, if you have, like, a splinter and you
put a bandaid on it really pretty bandaid on it, and then
it just starts getting infected.
So you put another bandaid on it and another one and another
one, and it just it doesn't.
And then and heavy and all over the place.
Splinter didn't really go anywhere.
You didn't remove it, you didn't remove the issue.
Deal with it.
Like antibacterial make it better.
You're just hiding.
And that's where I think a lot of the toxic positivity comes
in, where it's like, just make it pretty because you want
to be palatable.
Like, you don't want people to know how depressed you are.
So you put a smile on your face and because you don't think
people have said things like, Oh, what?
So we can listen to share and talk about how miserable she
is. Again, I know it's been said about me.
I confronted the people who said it.
It broke my heart.
You know, it made me sad because I was very honest.
I'm like, gosh, I'm really going through it.
And sometimes people want good vibes only, and they don't
want to deal with those ugly sides of you.
It's uncomfortable.
And I'm curable for people who maybe don't look at it themselves
or just in general, it could be an uncomfortable thing.
But I'm curious in mom community.
So this is as me, a total outsider.
But a lot of the things that I see about motherhood, I see
some authenticity on Tick talk about how crazy it is and
how messy the house is.
And just like, there's a mom talk, which is amazing, and
I'm pushing for you to get on it.
But I love that.
Yeah, but there's not this mental health darkness, darkness.
It's like there's the messiness.
Oh, my kid is crazy.
I am cleaning the toilet at two a.
M.
There's that.
But there's not this raw darkness that can come with the
experience of bringing forth life into the world.
And I'm just curious, like, you being on the inside.
Do you feel that?
Do you feel like there's almost this toxic positivity in
the mom community?
Or, like, you couldn't be totally authentic or honest with
what exactly you're going through.
Maybe the same group of girls that were, like, French fries
in the bar that I told you that.
Yeah.
They all left New York.
Well, I mean, I think I think a couple of States now they
left. I think I have one more girl in New York.
My girl Jenna.
She stayed here, but everyone else slowly but surely dispersed.
A bunch of them left immediately during a little bit, but
we have a luck app group.
Okay.
I messaged.
And, you know, a lot of them, it was crazy because we were
all pregnant at the same time with our second kid.
Was he crazy?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
Weird.
It feels like kidding.
It almost like, first get the same age.
And I were pregnant with the second group at the same time.
So, like, I very much opened up to them about it.
And, you know, they were as supportive as they could be.
But it's really hard when you can't get, like, a physical
hug from someone.
Like, it's really hard when you can't be like, Hey, can you
keep this kid alive for me for a second?
I need to go drink a coffee while it's still hot.
Yeah, I but in terms of, like, love their hood outside of
it. Yeah.
I mean, I hear a lot of women, like, as soon as the baby
was in my arm, like, we're all just complete.
And I'm like, what was it even when my daughter Eleanor,
my daughter Lenny, she was my easiest in terms of birth pregnancy.
I was diabetic when I was pregnant with her, but that was
fine. It was fine.
I mean, I bonded her the fastest, but even still.
And she is from, like this.
I just met her.
I I think that there's a lot of like, and when I talked to
other women about it, like, one on 1, they're like, Oh, you
have two girls.
And I'm like, well, then why are we about it?
You know, when I lost my baby, people will send me private
messages. I went through it, too.
And I'm like, Why is this a private message?
Why are you closing the door to make sure nobody hears you?
Why is it dirty?
Wow.
So I had postpartum depression.
I made a Facebook post about it, and I posted a very unflattering
picture of myself very sleep deprived.
I remember my mom was upset because I said the word fuck
too much, and I probably said it too much in this little
part. I'm sorry.
Sorry, Mom, but but otherwise, you know, my mom was very
touched by it.
People were very touched by it.
And I got a lot of private messages.
I went through it, too.
This was me.
Thank you for posting this.
And, you know, there was a little comment and I really applaud
their bravery, but it does feel like showing someone your
dirty laundry.
And I'm just very fortunate with all that extra version.
And I'm like, here it is.
This is my story.
This is my truth.
If you could relate, like, talk to me.
I got you because I can't imagine having gone through this
without having studied psychology and knowing that it happens.
Like if I went through this, not knowing what's going on,
which is what a lot of women, especially for their first
kid, a lot of women have no idea.
They think they're just fucked up people.
They don't know what's the hormones, the trauma, the imbalance.
They don't know how to get out of it.
I was really lucky I had those tools beforehand, so I got
out of it before a year hit.
But there are some who do bond with their kids free years
and years and years because it just doesn't get better there
to kill themselves, which they just didn't get the help they
deserved. You think that Yeah.
I feel like the more of these conversations you have, Sharon,
and bringing this darkness into the light, maybe women who
are experiencing these things.
I think when we talk about things and when we cast them into
the light, and when you make Facebook posts like that and
you're so vulnerable on my podcast, for example, it it's
liberation, really.
And it helps other people going through the same thing because
they know that they're not alone.
There are so many things that we go through alone.
I've had my own things.
I've just gone through alone, not knowing that there's a
whole community of people that have a shared experience.
And it's like the difference of hearing someone and relating
and connecting and knowing that is not shameful or in the
dark or something to be cast aside.
It's very powerful.
I think it's an important conversation to have.
I hear the word destigmatize and fine.
We can use that word, but it's deeper than that.
It's like, no, this motherhood.
This is the happy, bonding and cooking and playing.
This is the same thing.
It's this part of it, too.
It's both of them.
And it's all beautiful.
It's all motherhood bringing.
You know, just if I can, I would love to challenge any moms
to say it first.
I think that that's the biggest thing that so often moms
are like, me, too.
And I'm like, Let's say first, Let's have it out there.
Because after I had my SIL brother, after I'd been depressed
and after I put it out there, all these me too.
They weren't there when I needed them.
I needed them beforehand, so that when I was going through
it, I knew I wasn't alone.
The me, too, is all retroactive.
It's all after I pointed out there, after I've already coped
with it.
So I think that it's important and I'm not really anybody
to be making these challenges.
But anyway, I'm going to say I'm going to put it out there.
If you're a mom and you're having these struggles, I'm going
to challenge you to say it first and let people who haven't
gone through it know your stories.
God forbid, if they're going through it, they already know
about you, and they know that they're not alone as they're
going through it and not afterwards.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
I assume that that's great.
I love it.
It is very brave, though.
It's very brave what you've done and what you're doing in
this challenge, too.
But it's just human.
It's so human.
The fact knowing that you're not alone.
And so when you do say at first that there are going to be
people that are going to connect and relate and help in some
way, that's just really powerful.
Thank you.
Sharon.
Is there anything else that you want to share with mothers
who might be going through the same thing or women who want
to be moms one day and things that they might need to know?
Like, I'm just curious if you have any other kind of Yes.
Thank you.
Give me this opportunity to talk your ear off.
I love it.
You and I could talk for, like, five hours, right.
For the moms who want to be moms, I struggled to get pregnant.
I struggle to stay pregnant.
I got very, very lucky.
But there's a lot of ways to become a mom.
There's science, there's ways that don't involve pregnancy.
And I think it's really important for us to as women to make
the focus motherhood rather than pregnancy, because it leads
people out of the conversation because not every mom's been
pregnant before, and not every pregnancy leads to a baby
being born and getting to grow and thrive and everything.
So I think that when we shift our focus to motherhood, that's
a much more attainable goal.
And it sucks.
It really sucks.
Getting a negative pregnancy test over and over and over.
I remember when I was pregnant with all my pregnancies.
Actually, I would keep taking pregnancy tests after I already
knew I was pregnant because I wanted to have as many positive
as negative.
I just wanted to even it out because I was so sick.
That stupid negative.
So that's one thing I want to say.
It's not easy to become pregnant.
And even if you do have the challenge and you do get pregnant,
it's okay to feel things Besides grateful.
Like, Yes, you're grateful that you got pregnant.
Of course you are.
But it's okay to also feel sad.
It's okay to also feel overwhelmed just because you have
to appreciate what you have doesn't mean you're not allowed
to be anything else.
You are.
You have permission to feel all your feelings.
And that's where I was at.
I felt guilty for not being so appreciative that I had another
healthy baby after what I've been through.
And I was appreciative.
But I was a whole bunch of other shit, too.
And the most important thing is, you know, if you know someone
who's given birth, if you know someone who's feeling off
to you, it's not even about asking if they need help because
they're going to say, no, I'm good, you know?
But, like, let them know you're actually there for them when
you come to their house.
Don't let them pick up a dish after you.
Don't make more work for them.
You know, people love are exhausted.
You're not a guess.
You're coming to help.
And if you're not, you'll meet the baby when the baby is
a little older and just be there.
I don't tell this toxic.
Like, just be positive.
It goes deeper.
Sometimes you can say to someone instead of don't cry.
You could say, like, it's okay to cry.
I'm here with you.
I'll listen to you.
I'll cry with you.
Let's talk.
And I think that's a lot of what I needed.
I'm really lucky I got it from the few people that were in
my pod during all this.
And without that, I couldn't have gotten through it.
Nathan, thank you so much.
I want to just leave you the space to plug wherever you want
people to go find you.
So most of my stuff was makeup related.
I'm not.
I'm not really doing the makeup stuff anymore.
I'm full time Mommy, so you can get me on my personal Instagram,
which is S-H-H lips L-I-P-S.
That's because my maiden name and I haven't changed it yet
or on Facebook.
I'm at Sharon.
L-G-J-I-E-L-I.
It's pronounced Glits, my husband's last name, and I'm proud
of it, but it's very difficult to read.
So it's Julie.
And if anyone has anything that they want to talk about,
just Damme I'm around.
I'm happy to talk.
Happy to to be there and cry with you as you need.
Alright, guys, that's the show.
Thank you so much for tuning in and listening or watching.
If you're on YouTube, you can find Sharon's information in
the show notes and in the description or on my website, www
dot the Morgan may dot com.
Don't forget to Subscribe and leave a review if you liked
this episode until next time.
